Here's the transcript of the first hour of the conversation that graduate
students in at least 3 states had with Dr. Alex Pang (Penn Ph.D., HSS),
Deputy Editor, Encyclopedia Brittanica, on Nov. 17, 1997, courtesy of the
SAS MOO and technical help from Jay Treat of SAS Computing. 

CPPS will schedule more MOO sessions second semester.  We welcome your 
suggestions of speakers you'd like us to invite.  They can be anywhere in 
the world if they have web access. [e-mail to heiberg@pobox.upenn.edu or 
vick@pobox.upenn.edu].


Post_Office_Guest arrives in a flash.

Post_Office_Guest drinks the coffee and is momentarily transported to another 
place.
"hi, Alex, thanks so much for doing this!  I'm not in my office, because I deci
ded to go to Jay Treat's lab for some first-hand commentary on what's happening
.  While 
Jay asks, "Good coffee, eh?"
APang  bows to Post_Office_Guest. "Welcome." He looks for Jay. "Are these 
standard guest names here?"
.  While I'm at it, let me mention that we're using MOO courtest y of Arts and Sc
iences, and thanks to Jay Treat's help.  

Guest says, "My name is Elizabeth, gloomy job-seeker. I'm finding MOO a bit 
disorienting."

Jay says, "Yes, these are standard guest names."

"It looks as if we have at least a few guests here.  Would anyone
 like to bei gin with a question to Alex?"

Post_Office_Guest exclaims, "Yes, I feel like I'm playing an old computer 
game!"

Jay says, "You can refer to guests by the first part of their names..."

APang says, "Elizabeth, you get used to it in a bit. I found it rather 
disorienting at first myself."

Guest says, "I also am telnetting here, so I can't correct my spelling. I'm 
sorry."

APang  sits down behind the desk, and props put his feet expectantly. "I 
almost feel like I should open with that old comedian's bit: 'Is there anyone 
from out of town?'"
"
Post_Office_Guest asks, "So, Alex...how are you enjoying the 'real' world?"
"
APang  says to Guest, "Don't worry about the spelling. It's one of the costs 
of doing business here."
"
Jay exclaims, "YOU're from out of town!"

"Alex, to give people a sense of the day-to-day in your job, I wonder if
you mi ght talk about a few of the things you did earlier in the day,
before making ti me for this session?" 


Guest asks, "Alex, let mye start with a pircing and probing
question: what exactly do you do as a Britannica editor?"

Daylight_Savings_Time_Guest arrives in a flash. 

APang answers, "I enjoy
it. Though the 'real' world is a lot more similar to the academic world in
some ways than we realize." He reads the next questions.  "Okay, I can put
these together...." APang says, "My official title is deputy editor, which
means I'm in charge of the content of the encyclopedia."

Cream_Cheese_Guest arrives in a flash. APang nods to Cream_Cheese.

"Welcome." 
He returns to the question. "I'm in charge of the editorial
department, which has about 20 people in it, and deals with a lot of other
parts of the company." 

Guest asks, "What does this mean/ Do ou pick out
who writes the articles?" 

APang says, "I do a certain amount of
commissioning, but generally I supervise editors who specialize in a
certain field-- art, literature, geography, etc." APang says, "But I also
commission articles in things that interest me." 

Post_Office_Guest asks, "Did you find it difficult
to take on the role of supervisor after such a long time as a student?"

APang shakes his head. "No,
in a way. The challenges you have managing people are ones you'd have no
matter how long you were a student." 

"What kind of challenges are there
se?  

Post_Office_Guest nods "What kind of challenges are these? 

APang adds, "AND, in many ways, dealing with students gave me
some ability to handle managerial issues, I'm glad to say." 

"What kind of
challenges are these?  

Jay says, "I suppose dealing with a school's bureaucracy is good practice."

"What kind of challenges are these?  What's the typical amount of 
experience of one of your editors?  Did you find yourself supervising people 
who'd been in the business for a long time?""

Guest says, "How much training were you given? Did you serve in a lower 
position first/"

APang  agrees that academic bureaucracies are similar to corporate ones. "My 
editors are all far more experienced than me," he replies to Mary. "Some have 
been here more than 20 years."

APang replies to Guest, "And I didn't have any real previous training here at 
EB before becoming deputy editor-- all my training has been on the job."

"Sounds like people like working there.  Did you find you had to work to establ
ish your credibility?  Do yu t   ou think your Ph.D. s was helpful in that regard?"

APang  nods vigorously. "I did indeed have to do some things to establish my 
credibility. A lot of the people here were part of the group that created the 
15th Edition, which was aMASSIVE enterprise-- they're like combat veterans."

" Guest asks, "What things did you dio?"

APang  continues, "But fairly early on, I took on one of the big multimedia 
projects that was scheduled to appear in this fall's CD. And working on that, 
and bringing it out, turned out to be my own trial by fire-- a fairly public 
one."

Cream_Cheese_Guest says, "A friend of mine has also recently made the 
transition from academia to a research division of a corporation, and he said 
that he has had some challenges figuring out how best to manage people who 
have been in the corporation for many years.  He seems to be having some 
difficulty figuring out which management style is appropriate.  Did you have a 
similar experience?""

APang  concludes, "And the Ph.D. did help a lot, in two ways. One, people 
respect degrees in most places, and especially in publishing. But second, it 
was proof that I was able to work on something REALLY big, and see it through 
to completion."

APang says, "More than proof of a specific piece of expertise, it was proof of 
my ability to get a difficult job done."

Jay says, "How many at EB ..."
Jay says, "would you say..."
Jay asks, "have Ph.Ds?"

"Did you articulate this proof or did people figure it out 
themselves?"

APang sips his coffee. "I should add that there are very people here who have 
advanced degrees-- a certain number of MAs, some ABDs, but very few Ph.D.s"
APang answer Mary, "They figured it out themselves. This was a VERY 
high-visibility project."

Jay  looks around to see if anyone else is about to ask a question.

APang returns to the issue of Ph.D.s in the corporate context. "There are a 
couple other things work explaining."

Post_Office_Guest asks, "What does your office look like?"

Jay listens for the other things worth explaining.

APang asks, "One is that outside academia, the criteria for measuring degrees 
is very different than it is inside. How many people have been through an 
academic job search?"

APang says, "I assume at least a few of you have."

Guest says, "oh, yes. sigh."

Mariana teleports in.

Jay says, "I have too."

Post_Office_Guest says, "not me"

Cream_Cheese_Guest says, "I'm just beginning.""

APang says, "Well, I'm sure we've all become accustomed to thinking about our 
degrees and training in incredibly specific ways: you're not just a Penn Ph.D. 
in degree X..."
"Would any of the guests like to venture a guess as to skills they might have w

APang says, "You're also a student of a particular person, working on some 
specific subject. In other words, your  professional identity is established 
with  terrific fineness."

"Would any of the guests like to venture a guess as to skills they 
might have which would be good to stress in an interview at a place like 
Brittanica?""
"If so, Alex could give some feedback."

APang breaks the monologue. "Yes, definitely," he says, looking at Mary.

Guest asks, "Writing skills? Organization of complex written material and tons 
of facts? Digestion of a ghastly amount of literature?"

APang quickly finishes the previous thought. "HOwever, in the business world, 
a Ph.D. is pretty much a Ph.D.-- proof of certain abilities and possession of 
a body of useful skill, not proof of mastery of a certain body of knowledge."
Post_Office_Guest thinks that's interesting
APang waits for a couple other replies before responding.

Post_Office_Guest asks, "Ability to communicate ideas to diverse audiences?"

Jay says, "Initiative. Persistence. Analytic ability."

"*lots* of persistence.

Cream_Cheese_Guest says, "I imagine that teaching skills are also 
important--finding important patterns within the complex information, figuring 
out which themes to emphasize about a complicated subject to make it 
manageable.""

APang says, "Our guests are right on track."

APang says, "Keep in mind that in academia, you're competing with people 
who've got all these skills-- the ability to communicate ideas, who can write, 
who can talk to large groups of people."

"Alex, this may sound like an elementary question

Cream_Cheese_Guest says, "Communication skills too--being good at listening to 
others and them moving a group onto the next stage of a conversation or a 
project.""

Guest asks, "But in business these skills are less common?"

APang emphasizes, "But these skills-- PRECISELY the ones we tend to ignore, 
because they're so common among ourselves and our competitors-- are REALLY 
quite valuable in the business world. Not just for getting jobs, but for 
keeping them."

APang gives an example. "One of the things that confused me about the culture 
of business when I first started here is the ritual of the presentation. It's 
always an elaborate affair, at one level..."

:""   "Do you mean that people tend to use more slides and whiz-bang graphics?"

APang continues, "but at another it's very simple: most people prepare these 
Power Point slides, then give a presentation that consists of reading the 
slides aloud to a group of people who are increasingly bored by the 
presentation."

Post_Office_Guest asks, "Do you work with the financial end of things?  How 
did you learn to do that, if so?"

Post_Office_Guest doesn't know what a spreadsheet is

APang slumps in his chair, imitating the effect. He then sits up. "I didn't 
get this," he continues, "until I realized these people-- including VPs, 
consultants, everyone-- did this because they're actually TERRIFIED of public 
speaking."

Guest says, "Please continue about the presentations"

APang concludes, "To someone who's lectured to 200 restless undergrads, a talk 
to a board is NOTHING at all."

Cream_Cheese_Guest says, "So, is there some wiggle room for more creative or 
engaging approaches to presentations?""

APang says, "Anyone who's become comfortable in the classroom is actually far 
ahead of most people. But since you're in a business in which lecturing is 
perfectly normal, you forget how rare that actually is-- that ability to talk 
for an hour in front of groups without getting scared."

APang turns to one of the other things thrown out, writing ability. "Same for 
the ability to write. This is an unusual skill, folks, but not one that ANYONE 
thinks is unimportant."

"A brief interruption to welcome those who've logged in since we 
started and invite you to introduce yourselves if you wish.  We're going to 
post the transcript of this session to our homepage, so stay anonymous if you 
wish.  Feel free to ask whatever you want.  If something's been covered 
earlier, Alex can always"
say so and you can read it later."
You say, "so and you can read it later.""

Guest says, "Judging from a lot of my students' paprs, it is truly unusual."

APang nods in agreement, and looks around.

Jay wonders if anyone else has anything to say on this subject.

Guest asks, "Any other neglected skills that we tend to discount?"

APang says, "There are also other things worth pointing out in an interview."

Jay waits in rapt attention.

APang asks, "Anybody here have to pass those language exams to officially 
become ABD?"

Guest says, "yep."

Post_Office_Guest exclaims, "Awful!"

Jay exclaims, "Absolutement!"

"bien sur."

APang asks, "Anyone have to spend any time travelling abroad in the course of 
their research?"

Guest says, "sure."

Post_Office_Guest wonders if Queens counts

APang adds, "OR actually spend any extend period of time living abroad?"

Guest says, "Again sure."

Jay says, "a little"

:laughs   

APang says, "There's utility in all three of these. If you speak a language 
well, particularly something other than the usual French or German, that can 
be a real asset."

"Are there any international dimensions to your job?""

APang continues, "Likewise, if you're familiar with some place from having 
lived abroad, that can be a real asset.:

Daylight_Savings_Time_Guest asks, "To what extent do you think experiences 
such as living abroad are valued when not directly connected to the job?"
APang answers Mary, "Not right now, not directly. But heaven knows, had I 
spent time doing fieldwork, or negotiating foreign bureaucracies to get into 
archives, that would be valuable in consulting or public policy."

Jay says, "There's a pretty clearly established path for finding open academic 
jobs:..."

Jay says, "postings in the Chronicle and similar publications...."

Jay says, "How would one find a"

APang continues, "For consulting companies-- McKinsey, Andersen, etc.-- the 
international market (i.e. serving foreign clients, or helping American 
companies expand abroad) is a big thing. Being able to claim an ability to 
negotiate local customs is real useful."

APang listens to Jay.

Jay asks, "non-academic position to satisfy the life of the mind?"

Jay pauses

APang nods. "Good question. There are a few companies that do advertise in the 
_Chronicle_, but past that, I don't think there are probably any obvious 
single places to look."

Guest asks, "The Britannica job sounds almost ideal. how did you find it, or 
it find you?"

APang thinks for a second. "I'd think about the kinds of sectors you might 
want to work in, and then go from there." He turns to MaryH. "Feel free to 
jump in whenever you want!"

You say, "We've got tons of resources at CPPS, and quite a lot lnked through 
wwwupenn.edu/CPPS....""
.
APang answers Guest, "Part of the reason I hesitate to give much solid advice 
about how to look for a non-academic job is that I pretty much got this one 
through sheer luck..."


"No such thing as luck.  People who do the right things *always* say they were 
You exclaim, "No such thing as luck.  People who do the right things *always* 
say they were lucky!"

"WEll   ell, some luck, of course, but luck tends to seek out the well-prepared and, 

APang continues, "A student of mine is the daughter of a member of the Board 
of Editors; I head about the job through her."

Mariana says, "seems it's a matter of timing..."

Jay says, "And networking."

"the internet helps the less gregarious...."

Mariana says, "andthis brings int he excellent resources at CPPS"
Mariana says, "yes.  but as an abd student, I always wonder..."

Guest asks, "you heard about it from her and then what? You placed a quick 
call? sent your resume?"

APang agrees somewhat. "Certainly it wasn't just blind luck, and it's not like 
there's only one opportunity that comes along per lifetime." He turns to 
Mariana. "In some measure it is timing, but the timing is different in 
business than in acacademia."

Mariana asks, "is it worth it to wait until we've gotten a real handle on the 
diss. before we reach for those other jobs?"

Cream_Cheese_Guest says, "From reading your article, it also seemed that your 
wide range of interests actually made the jopb at EB a more comfortable fit 
for you than an academic job related to one tiny specialty.""

Post_Office_Guest says, "That is a good question Mariana"

Mariana says, "right--since timing is different, i know i should wait to 
finish the phd, before moving to something else"

Mariana asks, "but how much is this ph.d. valued... is it worht the wait and 
the pain?"

"some people take writing breaks"
"...and do a little career exploration on the side.  if you have time for a wee
 internship, that can help, too, in changing fields."

APang answers Mariana after a moment's through. "Personally, I'm very glad I 
finished the degree. It was entirely worth it to me, and I doubt I could have 
finished had I been working at the same time."

Mariana says, "yeah, but a good job in the npon-academic spphere means once 
you take the break,, that's it--no more phd."

Mariana says, "a wee internship pays nothing, adn they are all in Washington 
d.c. or at penn." Mariana pauses out of breath

"I hate to see grad students work for free.  Negotiate.  Actually, 
I've known people to do lots of interesting things in the Delaware Valley.""

APang adds, "However, a dissertation is a  VAST investment of time and energy, 
and a lot of your psyche. Most simply, I think if you love your research, then 
finish. If you don't, it's probably not worth finishing."

Mariana says, "right, well i love it that's why i keep doing it"

You say, "Um, how many people are feeling in love w/ their researches in the 
last stages of writing? :)  Anybody here?""

Post_Office_Guest is definitely not in love!

Jay says, "I still enjoy it, and I'm working full-time at another job."

Mariana says, "i suppose i love my work because i continue to do fieldwork...."

APang says, "Keep in mind, too, that if you ANY interest at all in keeping 
some kind of scholarly life going-- be it on the side, or as part of your 
job-- the Ph.D. is going to provide essential credibility."

Cream_Cheese_Guest says, "In some ways, morte so--but that's because I've 
gotten more confident in my contribution and interpretations as I went on.  
There was a nasty stage in the middle that was not fun at all!""

Post_Office_Guest asks, "Do you miss teaching Alex?"

APang admits that there were a few months that weren't particularly pleasant. 
"But it's like any really important thing in your life. There are going to be 
parts of finishing a diss. that are really tough, but that doesn't mean you 
should bail out."

APang answers, "In some degree I miss it."
------------------------------------Jay------------------------------------
I work 40 hours a week helping faculty do their work.  Then I go home and 
do my own research.  I think if I worked in a typical academic position,
I'd spend 40 hours a week teaching survey courses and attending committee
meetings, -- and then go home and do my own research.  So, if what I'm
really interested in is research, I can do it just as well here. Alex, you
make a similar point in your article.
-------------------------------End of Paste--------------------------------
APang says, "Certainly I miss dealing with really good students; I don't miss 
dealing with the ones who were detached and uninterested."

"What would you recommend reading to get reasonably up to speed in 
business before heading into business interviews?""

APang agreed with Jay. "You always have less time for scholarly work than you 
expect, even as an academic. There's committee work, teaching, service, etc.-- 
lots of things to get in the way."

APang concludes, "I think the main difference is that there are fewer real 
incentives outside academic to be serious about scholarship: it ends up, for 
me, anyway, being something I continue to pursue, but it requires plenty of 
self-discipline, more than even when I was a postdoc."

APang answers Mary, "I think it good to try to get up to speed on a specific 
company, or a line of business. Interviewers are always impressed by people 
who do their homework."

Daylight_Savings_Time_Guest has disconnected.
The housekeeper arrives to remove Daylight_Savings_Time_Guest.

APang says, "It's easiest to do background research on big companies, of 
course. But if you can't do that, then the industry itself is the next thing 
to research."

You say, "Jay is going to shut down the transcript, so if anyone wants to 
introduce him or herself or ask a question coming more fr. individual 
background, it will be "off the record.""


The conversation then continued for another hour.......


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