Clayton White Interview Transcript

CW: Historically, Philadelphia has had a few black concert choirs[Mmm hmm] and I think mine is the only one left now 'cause the other-a few others died out. One guy's not able to -he's really too old. He has Alzheimers now Paul Roberts was a very fine musician, uh, one of my mentors. And I'm the only one left now really-that does concert music[right]. So that's my, that's my choir background. Plus I've worked as a vocal coach and accompanist preparing singers for operatic roles, for oratorial roles, or just preparing for recitals. I have a focus in church music too. I was a church musicuan for over forty years. AS a choir director, organist, minister of music, and I do workshops on church music, especially music for the African American church. In fact-who was it-Fox tv last summer, I was on one of their specials on gospel music.

AW: Oh they did one? What was…?

CW: I was-this was July.I think it was July. I was engaged by the Philadelphia Gospel Music Seminar to do some lectures on the roots of gospel music. I started back with-well, like, when I was at Penn, at you class-brought it back with secular folk music, sacred folk music, and through spirituals. So they get a sense of where gospel music came from [right]. And Joyce Evans who was-is-a reporter on Fox happened to have been there. No, she heard about it but she wanted to cover it because she was doing a piece on gospel music, the commercialization. And that's how we hooked up. And then I did about a forty-five minute piece for them on that-conductor. I do a lot of engagements as conductor[Mhh hmm] for usic festivals, concerts seminars, workshops. I do some summer things. I have done summer things because I continue up at Westminster Choir College in Princeton. They're seeking to diversify their offerings. They have offerings in workshops in African American music, African American church music [Mmm]. I did things onthe spiritual, I did a thing on African American concert composers. What else did I do? That's about it I guess. That's enough isn't it?[laughter]

AW: I was gonna say, what else? Did you do anything else?

CW: Now during the 60s-it was in my college years and as most blacks-no, I shouldn't say most, a lot of black college students were militants.

AW: Would you characterize yourself as militant?

CW: Of course, of course! [laughter].We had our afros and our disheekees. Do you know what those are?

AW: Dysheekees were-I've seen them. I can't describe them.

CW: You've seen afros, right?[laughter]

AW: Yeah, I've heard of those before.

CW: I mean real big . [He puts his hands above his hair suggesting a large afro would have filled that space]

AW: Not that--I saw the girl on the corner with one.

CW: No, I'm talking about-

AW: Well, my mom had one but I think it was a wig so-I have a picture at home. I think it was a wig…

CW: I have some pictures at home. I don't think I have any here.[He searches through his desk drawers and recovers a few photos]. Alright, here's one…swimming pool, isn't this a lot of hair [laughter].
But of course it was an important period because, well, it wasn't the only one too because during the '20s we had the same kind of thing. Marcus Garvey, Return to Africa, the Harlem Renaissance. So it wasn't really new. Plus it goes back to slavery too 'cause, 'cause you had slave revolts, but this was a time when the whole country was in upheaval with the assasinations of Kennedy, both kennedys, Martin Luther King, Malcolm X. The federal government was going crazy. We, I don't know if people can prove it but I'm sure the federal government was behind all that.So those of us who were in college and really involved-well, it started out in sit-ins. Do you know what sit-ins are Anika?[AnikaChuckles] Well you…

AW: I know, I know…

CW: So even up here, up North-Maryland was at the-what is it-Mason Dixon [Mason Dixon] Line. The eastern shore of Maryland was just as racist as the deepest South and I was part of an organization that was involved in sit-ins and things like that but I found out I couldn't do that because I wasn't non-violent.[laughter]I didn't pay attention. They had us do mock sit-ins and they would-well the shouting I could see but when they start spitting and burning with cigarettes-supposed to be still? I couldn't do that so I stayed home and did other work.

AW: So wait. You practiced that? You practiced getting burned by cigarettes?

CW: Well, they did a training session and these were the kind of things that might happen to you. I said, uh, no. Can't sit still if they're gonna do all that. I'd rather tsay here.

AW: So how did you get hooked up with-whatever organizations---

CW: I forget, well, Black Panthers were-I wasn't a Black Panther-but they were big at that time. I thinm ther was a group called Black people's Unity Movement. It seems to stick in my mind for some reason. I'm really not sure who ran that. But I do-I mentioned the Church of the Advocate [yeah]. Now Father Paul Washington was big in the Movement and there were a lot of meetings there. I went to a lot of meetings there and people like us, Stokeley Carmichael, Huey Newton, H. Rap Brown, and all those people were-

AW: Huey Newton and who?

CW: H. Rap Brown

AW: Oh, okay.

CW: Angela Davis, boy, I'm going back a lot of years now, boy. But it was a time when African American people or black people at that time really kind of wok up. There was a consciousness of being black in America and not taking it anymore. Well, there was also a dichotomy too 'cause some folks were advocates of non-violence a la Martin Luther King. Other folks were advocates of doing whatever was necessary-like the Black Panthers. And non-violence worked for a while. Then there was a period of riots 'cause when King was killed the cities went up in flames. Plus other riots too, Philadelphia-well at Penn, North Philadelphia, Columbia Avenue, …people were burning down stores. There's still some vacant lots forty years later. In Atlanta there's still some vacant lots, in Detroit, in L.A. But it was kind of crazy to burn down your neighborhood. But people were so frustrated that they had to do something. So they went out and did that, I remember.

Now musically. We called it avant garde jazz at the time-people like Cecil Taylor, Eric Dolphy or…Coltrain. Music really reflected the time-atonal, free improvisation-it sounded kind of wild. What else was going on at that time? Oh, colleges had sit-ins, I forgot about that. In fact there was a sit-in at this college [Community College of Philadelphia]. It originated at an Old building down town, a former department store, 11th and Market. I remember student sit-ins and disruptions and things. Students were militant. It was also fueled by-going into the 70s now-G.I.'s returning from Vietnam. You got the G.I. bill and went to school, but whatever happened over there they came back angry-anti-…dis-establishmentariansim was the word. It was a very exciting time. Myself, I was about twenty-six/twenty-seven, when I started teaching and I thought it was an exciting time. Well, a lot of students my age and older, some of them I knew-went to high school together. They just happened to drop out and go to service and came back to school later. I thought it was an exciting time, musically, in terms of cultural awareness. It was a really exciting time…